Curse

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 20, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Scupper

My true colors were always to call people who make moronic statements morons. You actually think that you can correlate the real world and a videogame. Sorry, that strikes me as moronic.

*sighs* You're the one who came into this thread hurling insults and name calling like a child throwing a tantrum. So if you want to call people morons that's fine... but it's really not going to help your argument either way. You're just coming across like a juvenile.

fsb_ben · May 20, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

its pretty impossible to stop any kind of written hatred from occuring. for example, the swear filter can either be

a) turned off
b) avoided by simply spelling swear words wrong: fukk, shiet, biatch.

it sucks, but whatever

Rusty Scupper · May 20, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by twotimes

If you want to argue about illiteracy with me, please spell correctly.

You find one spelling error so I'm unable to call out your bs stats? You've resorted to picking out typos to support your argument.

Quote:

Definition of Ignorant: Lacking knowledge, education, or experience; uneducated; inexperience.

Wow. That's helpful. Again, you don't like my opinion, so I must be ignorant. Have you demonstrated what I'm ignorant of? Do fill me in on this amazing knowledge you possess, since I'm clearly ignorant in the ways of the world.

Quote:

Until 1930 my entire family was illiterate. I just take it very seriously now that I am carrying the torch for my people.

Does "carrying the torch" mean using a spell checker? Did you even read the link you provided? It says 28%, not 41%.

Anyhow, I'll continue to ignore/avoid racist idiots on the internet but I'll always support their right to be racist idiots. You guys can start your informer campaign if you choose to be activists. Good luck to ya, I just think you will be disappointed with the results.

Phantom Force · May 20, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

First I'm going to admit I did not read every single post in this thread. However I basically get the whole idea. I agree and disagree. Fact remains that there will always be stupid kids making stupid racists comments, you can't make them stop only hope. Maybe Anet would take action on those players but I doubt they want to waste the man power even with screenshots. I think it is completely stupid and immature that kids 10-25 use racist slurs even if it's in good nature (ie. What's up my nigga). It's all dumb and all lame but in America you can say what you want "Freedom of Speech."
However it is complete ignorance on those who think other countries or nationalities aren't racists towards us. If you played FFXI you will know what I'm talking about. Anyone can be racists and to simply blame Americans is stupid. I'm American and I'M NOT RACIST and I NEVER make stupid comments (but I'm also not 12). I will admit though it is a sad fact that majority of Americans only speak English. It is my belief that our education system should be focusing on making sure that our students learn a second language like many other countries where a lot of people are learning their native language as well as English or another language. If you want to keep it simple in a perfect world it would be nice to not have morons, not have AAIP's in games, racists, murderers, etc. Except we don't live in a perfect world and we can't change people who don't want to change. We have to learn to deal with these people accordingly, wether it's leaving the party, asking them to stop or something else we do have alternatives. It sucks but there is only so much we can do.

sino-soviet · May 20, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

In a videogame, you are essentially dealing with society in general - and racism is a part of it. You see it everywhere, and its simply part of life. No one who made those comments mean it truly racist context, for the game promotes competitiveness between players, and indeed, countries. I am jewish/chinese myself, and when people say down with the jews or chinks or something, people should really look beyond the surface and see that it is mostly in good fun.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 20, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Strange that the people who are coming in here and telling people that they're too sensitive and to just "ignore" the racist comments are making such a big fuss about people even reporting these comments.

So the "live and let live" philosophy doesn't apply to these people? What a bunch of hyprocrites.

Tobyus · May 21, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Ummm, when you install the game, you're suppose to read it as you get into it... At the bottom in the smaller letter (which probably werent read either) it states, accept if you have read and *Comply* with the statement. In a sense, i dont have the exact copy.

There may have been when I installed the game, but from this quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

**Maybe more people should read the terms of agreement, before just accepting and going into the game**

I assumed you were referring to going into the game, as in every single time.

Some of the things from the screenshot you posted really just sound like trash talk to me. The kind of things that fans say about their rival in a sport, or players say about their enemy in a video game. Unfortunately the teams have been specifically named after real groups of people, and any trash talking could be seen as racist if you take it out of context or too seriously.

By the way, how do you ignore in this game? That has been the only problem I have with people saying things I don't want to hear...I can't seem to locate the ignore button.

Dalia · May 21, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

There's absolutely nothing wrong with reporting someone who violates the Terms of Service agreement, especially if it has a sliver of a chance of even slightly, minutely, incrementally decreasing the amount of racism in this world.

Many of the remarks I've read here remind me of things I used to hear -- from cultural and political figures, as well as the general public -- "back in the day," such as: There's nothing you can do about it. Just ignore it. The world will always have ignorance, bigotry, etc. It's hypocritical to even criticize it.

It's frightening and disturbing to see those attitudes still thrive.

Report it, shun the player by putting him/her on the ignore list or by leaving the party/district, whisper a protest to the player, shout your protest for all to hear -- do something. If racism offends you (as it should), fight it.

One can pretty much guarantee that the world won't improve one miota by doing nothing.

As for myself, I repeat what I posted last week: racial slurs are unacceptable. Period.

Dalia

Dagbiker · May 21, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

The way i see it, im an 18 year old who hears these kids, yelling about beating these forigners, but the thing is, it wouldent be so bad, if they knew what they where talking about. its one thing for adults to joke, i still wouldent like it, in fact i would still be here posting, its worse when kid are spaming this.

Madjik · May 21, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowdaemon

ok my earlier statement may have sounded like i was defending people being racist on here by saying you should ignore them, i wasnt try to say that it was k that they did that, all i am saying is that there is no way it is going to be stopped, maybe taking screenshots will get rid of some people, maybe it wont, but all they want to do is bother you, there is no way they even really know what your skin color is or anything about you, just dont listen to them, all they want to do is make you mad

All they want to do is bother you, yes, this is true, VERY true; However, raceisim isnt based entirely on skin color. Were talking about someone hating you just because your a korean, or an american, or canadian etc. etc. etc.

yes, racisim comes in all forms, including nationality. Jokes about Woking the dog are distasteful and inappropriate and should be delt with. Ban a few, and a few of the others will learn, the ones that dont will also be banned, this is how it works in the gaming world, just as it does in the real world. How swiftly a company deals with such reports is just as important as creating a fanbase for the game. If one 'race' feels that the game is too biased twords thier group the company loses all (or at least a good portion there of) of that section of the worlds money, because most of them will not want to deal with it all the time; and the game dies faster.

Seriously if you see a truly racial slur you should report it. Not kill the koreans or kill the americans since that is an intrical part of PvP competitevness, but rather somthing that has nothing to do with the game and is hateful or offensive to the other nationality. Only real example i can come up with is that the japanese find the shortened term of "Jap" to be extreamly offensive, since americans used it derogitivly during ww2 ~remember that the next time you come accross a japanese player, dont shorten it to jap, its as bad as calling a black person a certain "N" word. its incredibly distastfull and extreamly offensive~

In short you ALL know what a real slur is; and not reporting it will only hurt the game more; since less money for a.net = less content for us. You keep your fellow man happy and life will be a little easier. It's that simple. Theres no place for that stuff in a game. At all. Anywhere. EVER.

Kyokuji · May 21, 2005, 06:20 AM // 06:20

I don't like it when people start trying to put limits on my freedom of speech.
If they want to be hateful and stupid, let them.

Censorship is never the answer.

Jep · May 21, 2005, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyokuji

I don't like it when people start trying to put limits on my freedom of speech.
If they want to be hateful and stupid, let them.

Censorship is never the answer.

But leaving this disgraceful behavior uncensored would just lead to more of it, and in the end, GW will be a racist hate fest. I agree that you should have a freedom of speech, as in swearing if you want. But heck, racism should not be tolerated in the least.

Madjik · May 21, 2005, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Freedom of Speech

Quote:

speech, freedom of, liberty to speak and otherwise express oneself and one's opinions. Like freedom of the press (see press, freedom of the), which pertains to the publication of speech, freedom of speech itself has been absolute in no time or place. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution bars the federal government from "abridging the freedom of speech" ; since the 1920s the amendment's protections have been extended against state, as well as against federal, action.

Although speech is freer in the United States than in many societies, federal and state laws do restrict many kinds of expression. Some kinds of speech regarded as damaging to individual interests (e.g., libel and slander) are limited primarily by the threat of tort action; other forms of speech (e.g., obscenity) are restricted by law because they are regarded as damaging to society as a whole. Speech that is regarded as disruptive of public order has long been beyond protection (e.g., "fighting words" that cause a breach of the peace or false statements that cause general panic).

The government also limits speech that threatens it directly; although sedition laws are rarely prosecuted in the United States, such rationales as a danger to "national security" have been invoked to silence criticism of or opposition to the government. Laws designed to silence opposition to organized religion (e.g., laws against blasphemy or heresy), common in some other countries, would run afoul of the First Amendment.

In recent decades speech controversies in the United States have involved, among other issues, whether and how "hate speech" directed at racial or other groups can be suppressed and what limitations may be imposed on speech in an attempt to combat sexual harassment. The definition of speech itself has been broadened to encompass "symbolic speech," which consists of actions that express opinions; thus, U.S. courts have held that burning the American flag as a protest is protected speech.

Freedom of Speech is not an excuse to the individules right not to be slandered.

EDIT: Fixed the bold print to exclude "Although speech is freer in the United States than in many societies..." Added italics and smilies to bring out the most important part.

Poppinjay · May 21, 2005, 07:39 AM // 07:39

While I wrote a message agreeing that racist rules need to be enforced (although keep in mind there has to be a balance struck between all the things the administrators need to spend their time on), I completely disagree with the point and click "agreements"

I bet not one person out of 100 reads them.

And they are pointless anyway. After you buy a game the store will not take it back, and unless you want to go through all the trouble of arguing with the company directly and then waiting and waiting for a refund if you don't like the agreement, you are pretty much forced to click yes anyway unless you want the money you spent on the program to be thrown away.

That the courts have shown they are willing to take some of them seriously is a disturbing trend.

I remember that a friend and I were thinking about setting up a webpage with an "agreement to enter" page that included a promise to tithe wages to us for the rest of their lives, just to show how silly and unenforcable these "contracts" should be.

Even worse are messages in boxes that say, "by opening this box you have agreed to..." I might as well walk up to a person on the street and say, "By scratching your chin you have agreed to..."

Poppin

Poppinjay · May 21, 2005, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Oh, and saying "Although speech is freer in the United States than in many societies" is highly misleading if you are compaing the US with other western industrialized nations. We are not #1, nor #2, or 3.... We are way down on the freedom index. I think it was in the double digits.

Madjik · May 21, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Mearly making a point from a link I found which was posted above the quote. The important part is in bold text, the actual comparison of U.S. freedom to the freedom of other contries has no bearing, freedom of speech simply isnt an excuse.

BahamutKaiser · May 21, 2005, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Well I'm American, I have been all my life, and I'm Korean, although not the most informed Korean, I don't speak much Korean.

First of all, any idiots who think that Koreans are racist towards us are ignorant, excluding North Koreans, South Koreans were literally raised by the U.S. after WW2, they adopted our Government and much of our culture. As for North Koreans, I know very little of, but you will most likely never see any North Koreans playing online, because North Korea is a third world country. Furthermore, the VAST MAJORITY of Koreans (South) understand english, they can right it pretty easily as well, they just have a hard time speaking and understanding verbal english, because of simular words. Almost all prominent cultures of the world understand english, because it is the language of buisness, and anyone whos ranting on other cultures thinking they don't understand them are idiots, if they carry any racism towards Americans, it is because of your foul behavior, not because they are pompass or ignorant.

Now Japanese may not be quite the same, and many players from other games with Japanese players might know that they are racist, I say this from a Korean perspective more so then an American perspective. But this game hasn't been officially released to Japanese players, if there are any, they are playing in english most likely.

Because most Americans are far to immature to restrain thier language in many, or all of thier conversation, I doubt that they will be "restrained". Many Americans sling foul comments and racial insults at eachother naturally (culturally verbal depravity). Don't expect them to change. As for removing them, because this game functions on multi-layered enviroments (districts), it is very difficult for Monitors to catch them. You can inform them of names of certain players, but the most they can do is watch them, Screenshots can be edited.

The most effective way to avoid this is to start working your ignore list, they arn't going to change, but if many players are proactive with thier ingnore list, you can subvertently remove thier ability to communicate with a vast proportion of the population, ergo hampering thier ability to progress because of lack of resources.

Personally, I'm not offended, simply because I'm too busy exploring and discovering to even read what my Guild has to say, let alone the average player, I never even glance at those comments unless im looking for a party or trades.

I've also noticed that Anet has made a very subtle mistake in spliting the worlds between different nations, making the game a direct competition between cultures. This is probably the most instigating device in the game that reverts competition to racism. Sure this is better for connectivity, but I think Anet might want either combine some of the worlds or split them further. As I see it, they have pitted America, Europe and Asia(Korea) against eachother, this instigates racisim. I'm not sure, but I'm betting that most of the players are American as well, this is kind of unfair. I think they should split American Players into 2 or 3 worlds (West, East, and if there are enough players, Centeral as well) in order to redirect competition/aggresion away from other nations, and circulated it more evenly. If European and Korean players make up a legitimately smaller number of players, then Anet should combine thier efforts together for the time being, simply at the ranking level (EurAsia has won favor in the Hall of Heros).

There are alot of things that can be done to avert prejudices from the game, I think your overlooking the more passive/subconcious means to remove the bias from the game.

Poppinjay · May 21, 2005, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madjik

Mearly making a point from a link I found which was posted above the quote. The important part is in bold text, the actual comparison of U.S. freedom to the freedom of other contries has no bearing, freedom of speech simply isnt an excuse.

I didn't mean to insult you. I just felt I would point that out because I hear so often from people who know nothing about the political sytems of other countries say that the US is the most free place on the planet. But it simply isn't true, and it has progressively become less true over the last 5 years or so.

My reply was to you simply because that is where I saw the statement, not because I didn't realize you were quoting somebody else.

Anyway, my apologies for the confusion.

Pop

Madjik · May 21, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

No offense was taken poppy, my defensive nature drives me to explain things i've said that dont always need explaining. No apology is neccesary, although I thank you for the consideration.

Poppinjay · May 21, 2005, 08:46 AM // 08:46

It is a real connundrum though. How much should tolerant people tolerate intolerance?

Even though I posted my agreement with the person who began this thread, my opinion on the matter keeps going back and forth. It would be an enormous task to police GW, and the ignore filter is already there. On the other hand this is a private game and the creators should want to keep it fun for everyone. Imagine how angry everyone would be if somebody logged on and starting using the channels to sell timeshares, advertise their websites, ask people to switch their phone companies...

But I think I have modified my position. The racism isn't SO out of hand that it is always in ones face, and the company needs to spend most of its energy adding new features that are needed to improve the gaming experience.

Perhaps if a character is caught making racist remarks, instead of kicking him off he or she should be automatically put on everybody's ignore list with a message that says to people the next time they log on something to the effect that that, "So and so has been automatically placed on your ignore list for making remarks that were perceived as racist (or advertising, or sexual harassment or whatever), but that players are free to remove this person from their ignore lists if they like.

Or perhaps it could just give a user an option when he or she logs on, saying something like: "So and so has been accused of racist (or whatever) speech by ___ number of people supported by ____ screenshots and seen by ____ moderators and _____ witnesses. Would you like to place this person on your ignore list? Ok/Cancel".

This way each individual can make up his or her own mind given the current amount of evidence.

The witnesses would be easy to find with the screenshots if one holds down control before taking the snap and this way the administrators do not have to waste so much time policing the net---they could just leave a question for the witness to answer the next time he or she logs on. Do you remember this? (Then present the screenshot, or describe the situation.)

One thing we DON'T want is for people to be accused of racism and get punished just because they beat out another guild or player in pvp who is a sore loser.

Perhaps the first couple of times being put on the ignore list could be temporary even. The game would become much less enjoyable if only a handful of people could see what one said, and would likely improve ones behavior in the game without actually kicking them off and saying they can't play OR limiting what they can say to willing listeners.

This might be a good compromise.

Pop

Also to clear up my position generally, I almost always favor free speech in public areas---GW is a private game however. While I think racists, homophobes, and other bigots are suffer from real psychological defects, they have every right to publish pamphlets, have parades in areas that others are allowed to as well, wear T-shirts to that effect, speak loudly and to protest against whatever they want. But they can't do it in a private store if the owner objects. I even agreed with the controversial ACLU decision to defend the KKK's right to protest while wearing masks. I believe they lost, but I think they should have won, because people who are are fearful of retaliation should be able to protest anonymously so long as it is peaceful.
The only speech issues that, in public areas, should be restricted is speech that causes harm not because of the words themselves or their meanings but because the words direct people to take a harmful or illegal action. Eg. "Kill that man!" or "Let's plant a bomb in this building", or slander, blackmail, or the famous example of yelling "fire" in a crowded area in order to cause a panic (since this is really a direction to evacuate).